As I read it I had to ask myself... What the hell are 'movement atheists'? Is it a movement for chronically constipated atheists? Sure as hell sounds like it.
Apparently JT is saying that all atheists are 'movement atheists', according to his pre-k doodle which got him a silver star:
Atheism is NOT a movement. You can have a movement that includes atheists, you can have atheists that join different movements, you can even have atheists that create their own movements, but atheism is not a MOVEMENT. Atheism is a conclusion and nothing more. Is there something about that which you, JT, do not fucking get? Let me give you a simple example in case you are still scratching your head in utter confusion.
Your idea that there is an atheist movement is like saying that if one has brown hair, they are therefor part of the brown hair movement... Or as you'd say 'movement brown-hairs' (which, now that I've written it, sounds incredibly disgusting). Do you see how stupid that is now? Has it sunk in yet?
I swear, these people at FTB and Atheism Plus are so mind-bogglingly stupid it makes me want to pull my movement brown-hair out.
They are GREAT for free comedy!
ReplyDeleteIf there's brown-hair movement, get a good shampoo and fine-toothed comb.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sayin that. Atheism is NOT a movememt. I've tried, in the past, to make that point at FtB, multiple times, only to be pilloried.
ReplyDeleteWhat I tried to refer to was the civil Rightd MOVEMENT in the '60's, even the Anti-War MOVEMENT of the same period. The last time I attempted to make that point, Carrier told me, "You need to get out more.". Really? I'm actually old enough to recall those days, and yes, they WERE movements. And not of the bowel sort that A+ seems to be.
1) Hmm.. I suspect I too (subconsciously) use the terms 'atheist movement' or 'skeptic movement'. Maybe 'atheist communities' or 'skeptic communities' are better terms.
ReplyDelete2) I liked Thibedoo's Venn diagrams. Easier than reading his posts. I only wish he had named names.. the yellow ellipse 'thinks that the Green (i.e A+) are the problem'. The purple ellipse are the misogynists, assholes and scumbags.. Woolly.. no points for guessing where you fall LOL. I hope he makes further refinements to the purple circle.. Tell us how you really feel Thibedoo.. there must be a)bad-ass scum who deserve to be in jail b) bad-ass scum who deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth etc. Damn.. I cant get through the day without my daily dose of baboons now.
Wait....the red circle knows the the purple circle exists...but the purple circle hangs outside the red circle...
ReplyDeleteSo...the purple people aren't aware of their own existence?
And where's the scumbag circle for the greenies?
What color would that be?
In response to Thibedoo's diagram, I offer my own:
Deletehttp://i48.tinypic.com/29vnj0h.png
Where is the circle for the people that know that the purple people exist and agree that they are a problem but don't think they are as big a problem as the green circle people and who think that the behavior and attitude of the green circle people is a problem as well (though a smaller problem than the purple people)?
ReplyDeleteI know, I know, "with us or against us", so all such people are condemned to the purple circle...
"Your idea that there is an atheist movement is like saying that if one has brown hair, they are therefor part of the brown hair movement... Or as you'd say 'movement brown-hairs' (which, now that I've written it, sounds incredibly disgusting). Do you see how stupid that is now? Has it sunk in yet?"
ReplyDeleteThat is pretty stupid. I'll totally cop to that.
What if, however, having brown hair meant you had next-to-no chance of being elected to public office?
What if having brown hair meant that people trusted you as much as they did rapists?
What if having brown hair meant you were less likely to get custody of your kids?
What if having brown hair meant you were harassed by people trying to convince you to dye your hair?
What if admitting you really dye your hair could cost you your family, your friends, or your job?
What if elected officials continually kiss up to Dog, who's followers claim that all brown haired people will suffer eternal torture for failing to dye their hair?
What if organizations which are devoted to those without brown hair receive massive tax breaks, but give nothing back to the community?
In a vacuum, "movement atheism" makes no sense.
In a world dominated by religious privilege, atheism should not be a mere conclusion.
"...atheism should not be a mere conclusion." this is called the naturalistic fallacy. look it up.
DeleteHj Hornbeck-
ReplyDeleteNo...atheism is still a mere conclusion.
If one wants to on top of that, kick those "what ifs", in the dick, that's being an activist.
Atheism is absence in belief in Gods.
Separate things.
I don't care how bright eyed and bushy tailed your idealism is, let's not rot away the utility of language.
We might want to use it later on.
Could come in handy.
"If one wants to on top of that, kick those "what ifs", in the dick, that's being an activist.
DeleteAtheism is absence in belief in Gods.
Separate things."
Yes, hence the term "movement atheist." Not "atheist," but "movement atheist." It's like an "activist," with the qualification that they also don't believe/lack a belief in a god.
"let's not rot away the utility of language."
Indeed. Otherwise we might confuse "Atheism is NOT a movement" with "movement atheist."
" Not "atheist," but "movement atheist." It's like an "activist," with the qualification that they also don't believe/lack a belief in a god." ....then why not say 'atheist activist', mcgenius?
DeleteWB has the right idea, movements are for flushing...
ReplyDelete"Apparently JT is saying that all atheists are 'movement atheists' "
ReplyDeleteNo what he said was "Movement atheists are but a subset of atheists in general."
Love you Bee, but this time you misunderstood.
Actually it doesn't matter who he decided were 'movement atheists'. There are no 'movement atheists' regardless of what circle, subset, or other thing he wants to put them in because they don't exist. They are just atheists. There is no such thing as an atheist movement or 'movement atheists'. This is something he has made-up, and he is wrong no matter how he puts it. Atheism is a conclusion. His attempt at conflating it with anything more is what the issue is about, and not where he puts his new made-up words in a circle.
DeleteHope that clears it up. Luvs ya too ;)
Look at the definition of atheism all you want, and you'll never see "female" listed in there. Would you thus conclude that there's no female atheists?
Deletenor does it say 'male', oh semi-great panjandrum. would you thus conclude that there are no male atheists? or blonde haired atheists? seriously, you're not even trying. i expect better. object if you must, but don't be silly about it. don't phone the shit in. that's just crass.
Delete"would you thus conclude that there are no male atheists?"
DeleteExactly, you get my point! So we agree, then, that Wooly Bumblebee is making the simple logical error of mistaking "A != B" for "B (and) A".
the error is yours-a category mistake. the term 'atheist' describes a conclusion, the end result of an argument-which causes a mental state to occur such that the person experiences a disbelief in deities. the term 'movement' is not even in the same category. one is a species of mental phenomena, the other a descriptor of an event/series of events.
Deletephilosophers have been trying to square this circle for a long time. how to get a mental event to manifest as a physical thing. you might be able to get away with saying that a 'movement' is an *instantiation* of some mental state or other, but you'd still be explicitly stating that one thing is different from the other, such that one causes the other.
oh, before i forget: being an atheist does not cause maleness, any more than it causes a 'movement', nor does the opposite obtain...so to say 'movement atheist', rather than 'an atheist that is part of some movement, apart from being an atheist', is not really supported by anything other than a possible preference for being mistaken.
if still tempted, esp. to cry 'cartesian dualism' at me, that isn't what underpins this position. you can perhaps say that the mental state 'being an atheist', can only manifest itself as being part of a movement, without which one could or would never know that agent 'a' actually is an atheist, but then, you'd still be stuck with two things which militate against the idea of a 'movement atheist': the atheists out there who are perfectly content to never mention it unless asked, and the inability to know the contents of another person's mind-such that a person could be a theist, and yet self-describe as an atheist, pantheist, deist, or some combination of epistemological/ontological descriptors, and the questioner would be no more informed by a lie or by the truth.
you'll find, and most logicians are loathe to accept, that the rules of formal logic have their limits.
"oh, before i forget: being an atheist does not cause maleness, any more than it causes a 'movement', nor does the opposite obtain."
DeleteNo, no, you don't get it after all. If atheism is only a conclusion, why are you commenting on a blog devoted to atheism? Why does this blog exist in the first place?
"you'll find, and most logicians are loathe to accept, that the rules of formal logic have their limits."
Actually, they're quite happy to accept those limits. How else to explain why there are so many different types of formal logic? Philosophers have spent endless decades coming up with new variants and mapping out their limits, ie. Kurt Godel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorem#Limitations_of_G.C3.B6del.27s_theorems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Topics_in_logic
I believe the term 'movement' atheist is used to make the distinction between someone who merely happens not to believe in gods, and someone who has decided to make their atheism outspoken and part of their identity. My brother is an atheist, but you'll never hear him talk about it unless specifically asked. I am an atheist, and I consider myself part of the movement; I wear the symbols, I advertise what I am, I join atheist groups and meetups, I talk about it. We are, as you point out, both atheists, but there is a difference between us.
ReplyDeleteI consider myself part of the atheist movement; my brother does not. For you to say that "There is no such thing as an atheist movement or 'movement atheists'" is simply incorrect. I am one, and I know many others who consider themselves such.
You are confusing the word atheist with actions. You cannot conflate them. Being an atheist is the conclusion. What you choose to do after that is up to you as an individual and does not mean there is a 'movement'. You choose to be more vocal about it than your brother, but it does not mean you are any different than your brother in terms of being atheists. You can say there is a community of atheists, of which you identify, but there is no atheist movement because atheism is NOT a movement.
DeleteI'm doing no such thing. You seem to think that I'm trying to change the definition of the word 'atheist' to something other than 'non-believer in gods'; I'm not. I'm appending a word to it to create a new term which means something related.
DeleteI can, and do, say that I'm part of the community of atheists. I also say I'm part of the atheist movement; that is, I'm part of a community of atheists that has chosen to advocate for atheism and atheism-related issues. We take action, as atheists, as a group. This is what a movement -is-.
I wonder, do you have issues with the term 'atheist activist'? I ask only because the term does the same thing you accuse 'atheist movement' of; it conflates the idea of atheism with action, though on an individual rather than a group basis. Do you deny that 'atheist activists' exist as well? If so, how do you justify that?
You're right in saying 'atheism is not a movement'. It isn't, it's an idea. But an idea can have a movement centered around it. Many have. This one does. I'm part of it.
"appending a word to it to create a new term which means something related."---so it's a new word/term/phrase/whatever, but its meaning has changed, hasn't it?
Delete"You're right in saying 'atheism is not a movement'. It isn't, it's an idea."---exactly. it's when you keep talking after that, that you start making mistakes.
I notice you fail to explain what those mistakes are. I strongly suspect "Parsley Victorious" is not psychic, so would you mind spelling out exactly what those mistakes are?
DeleteWell, yes. It's a new phrase, related to the word itself, which means something different than the original word. The meaning of the original word has not changed.
Delete"it's when you keep talking after that, that you start making mistakes."
So you disagree with my statement that an idea can have a movement centered around it? Why?
Also, would you mind answering my question regarding the term 'atheist activist'? I'm genuinely curious as to what your side of the camp has to say on that one.
May I suggest you both continue this discussion in the new forum here: http://www.isgodasquirrel.blogspot.ca/p/forum.html It will be easier for you to follow each other there.
DeleteGood idea. I would like some clarification, though: this forum is meant for comments aimed at other commenters, and not critical comments against your posts, correct? This isn't an attempt to silence dissent by moving it elsewhere, I hope.
DeleteHe zoomed in, but the larger Venn Diagram has a white circle labeled "people who find Freethought Blogs unreadable".
Deleteknowledgeable post.
ReplyDeleteoccasional constipation
herbs-cleansing